Curse

Martin Alvito · Sep 13, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You do realize how selfish and elitist you sound? You are basically arguing that want SF nerfed so that your phallic sword looks even bigger than it already is. You are basically arguing that the economic classes in GW should be even more stratified than they already are.

No, the reasons that I want SF nerfed have relatively little to do with items. It should be nerfed because it's broken in half. It's indefinite invincibility against 90% of the critters in this game. Often, but not always, its weaknesses can be managed against the 10% of critters that are capable of harming you when SF is active. This is not good for the game.

Further, I'm arguing that SF is stratifying your game further. It makes the super-rich just that much wealthier for every hour that players are out there farming ecto. The game isn't printing more limited items, it is printing more ecto, and people value ecto. As a result, the limited items become more valuable (and harder to acquire) as more and more ecto gets dumped into the system.

This is counterintuitive, and you're not the first person on these boards to have difficulty accepting the argument. I've argued the same about the great zkey giveaway that is XTH; the recent run of inflation started when zkeys were getting printed like mad and before UWSC really took off.

You would intuitively think that if the game designers make it really easy to get money, the skewed distribution of wealth in the game would ease. In reality, an easy money regime makes it much easier for players that make a living from buying low and selling high to acquire wealth. An easy money regime incentivizes farmers to sell lower in order to get back to farming sooner, and continually gives buyers more currency with which to bid. But the number of ectos that a farmer can make in any given period of time remains the same...

The upshot is that the traders win big when in-game currency is easy to get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

A full HOM is still full no matter how many other players have it.

But it distinguishes you from other players less and less as other players fill their hall...

There is more than one reason to want to max title tracks/own something/dedicate something/fill your Hall. One is to distinguish your accomplishments from those of others. Another is because you are completionist and want to do everything the designers put in there. These are both human motivations underlying the same set of actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Again, accept that my preferences are RIGHT and all others are WRONG!

This is what you're really saying here. What I'm trying to tell you is that peoples' valuations for objects have two components - intrinsic and comparative. People look around at others when assessing what they have and how they feel about it. It may not be "right" or "healthy", but it's human. Everyone does this to some degree, whether they admit it to themselves or not.

I recognize that you're a completionist and want to do everything that there is, but it isn't a realistic goal. There are only a bit more than two dozen mini Kanaxai's to go around and a lot of completionists out there...

The upshot is that doing so is attainable, but not without considerable sacrifice, the ruthless pursuit of the efficient use of your time, and absolutely no scruples. ('Sup, Wasabi.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Lastly, you do realize how radically different your arguments are compared to others wanting SF nerfed, right? I could quote innumerably from this topic alone people implying that SF users are selfish elitist brats, whereas you seem to imply that SF users are ordinary treadmill lemmings.

If you took a poll of the REALLY rich players in this game, I would imagine that they'll agree with the view I'm putting forward. There are plenty of players out there that are more money-motivated than me and have more stuff as a result. They didn't make those fortunes farming UW, and they've stated such on these boards any number of times.

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's not a UW argument.
If you look at the whole 4 minutes, the guys that KNOW what happened in the game after the Ursan nerf, will tell you that people didn't go back to playing balanced. They did solo farms, thus severely limiting the grouping options.
If you trash SF, grouping options in GW will be reduced.
A.Net is telling you that and the people that are now abusing SF are telling you that.

If on the other hand grouping will continue, that will ONLY happen with a new cookie. There won't be a BYOB to your HM area of choice. People are just too goal oriented to play that way.
If Thommy ZQuest won't be easy enough to do, people just won't do it. We are farming ZQuests, we aren't playing them.

I know from personal experience that every area in the game that can be H/H'ed, I can H/H. Of the remaining areas, Urgoz and the Deep aren't particularly difficult. The only areas that really take effort are DoA and the UW.

I do not see how nerfing Shadow Form will destroy gameplay in any area other than DoA and UW, because the alternatives to doing these other areas already exists.

Thommis ZQ will be easy enough to do. With me helming the team at least. Otherwise I'd expect people to do it with an Obsidian tank, which is still better than Perma tank (8 minutes for the Underworld is way too fast).

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't think 99% is much of an exaggeration, if it all. Discordway does "curbstomp" ALL VQs. As far as dungeons, I'd say there are only 3 which are non-curbstomppable by discordway.

At any rate, I feel like you're taking my quotes way out of context again. I was responding to a post which stated that the ubiquity of SF, in general PvE (e.g. VQs and missions) was getting to be a problem. I responded by saying that discordway was FAR more ubiquitous in general PvE.

Obviously, the only point of contention against SF which has a grain of salt is SF's use in farming and high end areas.

I doubt Discordway can curbstomp some VQs, e.g. the Desolation with "We Shall Return!" buffed and no Frozen Soil on Discordway, although I've never tried. There's also Grothmar Wardowns, which you said couldn't be done either (so even if it can be done, it's not "curbstomp"). There are more than 3 dungeons not curbstompable by Discordway: Slaver's, Vloxen's, Rragar's, Shards, Ooze Pit and possibly other dungeons I've not thought about. The UW and DoA can't be curbstomped by Discordway, and neither can any area where you see players going "LF Discord partner" during ZQ days.

Now I'll put the reverse question to you. Is there any area which cannot be curbstomped by running Shadow Form?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Can you please clarify? I feel that any argument made about SF and UWSC can be generalized to any other high end area.

No, it cannot. See what I wrote to upier above. I do not believe nerfing Shadow Form will lead to other areas dying. The UW maybe, but not elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Again, STOP caring about how others play the game.!!!!

You can't. I've countered this argument several times already. Don't bring it up unless you can answer the counter.

upier · Sep 14, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But as I've repeatedly argued, the "grind for years" objectives are made HARDER by SF-driven ecto farming, not easier. You don't get high-end minis by grinding for years on known farms. You get them by creating more efficient money-making systems than other players and outearning all the grinders running on the treadmill. An easy ecto regime just decreases the advantage that a clever player can gain on the field per unit of time invested.

Farming up a couple million gold to max titles with isn't a multi-year grind. I've farmed up that much in between 20 and 40 hours of gameplay several times during GW's run. If you're impatient, stubborn and unimaginative, then making that kind of in-game cash grinding at 10-20k per hour WILL take a while. But do players have anyone to blame but themselves in those circumstances?

Besides, once you have a decent nest egg it becomes stupid easy to create returns with little to no time investment. Aggressively buy desirable annual event consumables, wait a few months for the price to triple or quadruple, sell, rinse, repeat. A chimp could do this. All that is required is a bit of patience and the willingness to save up the initial capital rather than spend it on an immediate goal.

Yes, there are more efficient ways to trade. But this is an obvious, easy example of how to supplement your income with little work.

So we should "reward" the people that can't see better alternatives than SF ecto farming by giving them a gigantic treadmill to run on where they only feel they are making progress towards their end goals, when in reality they are just keeping up with the Joneses in the chase to have the nicest stuff?

I agree that tangible signals of progress are necessary to keep people around and keep them from getting bored. But if you're incorrectly measuring your progress in absolute terms (how many stacks of ecto) rather than relative terms (how many stacks of ecto do I still need relative to current market prices), then SF appears to be helping when in actuality it is not.

Minis are the exception here.
They differ from other end-game goals due to the limited supply. You don't craft or farm a Jeti. So their function is to exclude the majority of players form owning them.
And they still have this function.
Stuff like SF potentially just changes WHO is excluded. But as you said, a smart player will use the field to his advantage. So if one can't obtain these items, then one just isn't smart enough.

There is no limited supply for stuff such as the consumable titles. You having such a title does not prevent someone else form having it.
The only thing that is problematic here is the cost. And this cost is not in touch with playing the game. It's in touch with farming the game.
And when these goals can only be achieved by farming - then it doesn't make sense to oppose the best farming tool.
As long as farming is needed to achieve certain goals, I'd want the best possible option for farming so that I can minimize my time doing it.
(And the "best" tool isn't always the one that brings in the most money. How easy something is plays a massive role.)

Hopefully by the time high-end minies are the only thing to do for the majority of players, GW2 will be out.
Because then, this will be a problem.
But currently people in GW are still in their title-grinding phase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I know from personal experience that every area in the game that can be H/H'ed, I can H/H. Of the remaining areas, Urgoz and the Deep aren't particularly difficult. The only areas that really take effort are DoA and the UW.

I do not see how nerfing Shadow Form will destroy gameplay in any area other than DoA and UW, because the alternatives to doing these other areas already exists.

Thommis ZQ will be easy enough to do. With me helming the team at least. Otherwise I'd expect people to do it with an Obsidian tank, which is still better than Perma tank (8 minutes for the Underworld is way too fast).

Why do people run SF?
Because it's so damn easy.
And why is that important?
Because when you play with people you don not know, you want skills that make it pretty impossible for them to fail.
You remove SF, you increase the risk of failure.
And this increase in risk will deter certain players from playing in a fashion that they played in now.
For instance, certain players will quit. The game or just the area.
Certain players will only do guild groups (or group only with people they know).
And then there is going to be a few players that will still play - either because the risk will still be worth it or because they won't be able to understand the risk.

Unless of course a new "risk-free" is given.
Which is the new SF.

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

You make it sound as though it's so bloody difficult to do Thommis HM front way.
That's just so wrong.
And even if it weren't the case, Obsidian tanking is pretty damn near "risk-free" as well, and let me say I care much less for Obsidian tanking as I do for Perma tanking.

One more thing. Don't think people use Permas because it's so easy to play. People use Permas because it's so freaking fast. There is nothing that comes remotely close to clearing Thommis HM, UW, DoA, Kathandrax, Slaver's, etc as fast as Perma, sometimes 8 of them. Nothing. Not even pre-nerf Ursan. What does that tell you?

upier · Sep 14, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You make it sound as though it's so bloody difficult to do Thommis HM front way.
That's just so wrong.
And even if it weren't the case, Obsidian tanking is pretty damn near "risk-free" as well, and let me say I care much less for Obsidian tanking as I do for Perma tanking.

One more thing. Don't think people use Permas because it's so easy to play. People use Permas because it's so freaking fast. There is nothing that comes remotely close to clearing Thommis HM, UW, DoA, Kathandrax, Slaver's, etc as fast as Perma, sometimes 8 of them. Nothing. Not even pre-nerf Ursan. What does that tell you?

Sorry, that should be easy and fast.
And this is something players strive for.
So if you remove the easy and the fast part - thus making it a bit slower and a bit harder (or much) - what makes you think that people will still do it?
Why won't they just go to solo-SSing UW?

Gift3d · Sep 14, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I guess they've finally sold enough copies of factions. Anyways, buy cheap eblades while you can.

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

The ZQ argument.

Solo-SS'ing the UW gets you Ectos or whatever, but it won't get you anything else. If you need to complete a dungeon book, you can't solo SS the UW to get it (OK, so you can solo SS the UW and get $$$ and then pay a runner to get it for you, but that's really long-winded). If you want Zaishen coins, you can't get it by solo SS'ing the UW either.

Also ... that is - again - a UW specific argument. Do you have anything against nerfing Shadow Form for reasons outside of the UW? Or do you believe that even though Shadow Form is totally broken for areas other than the UW it's perfectly balanced in the UW, and to save the UW it's better to sacrifice every other area?

Reformed · Sep 14, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

One more thing. Don't think people use Permas because it's so easy to play. People use Permas because it's so freaking fast. There is nothing that comes remotely close to clearing...DoA, Kathandrax, Slaver's... Nothing. Not even pre-nerf Ursan. What does that tell you?

I would love to see a perma team clear Foundry, it would be horrifically inefficient. The Citadel even more so. The current heroway build down there doesn't use perma...at all. Gloom you may have a point but that's basically a rep farm with the off chance of some extra gems so who cares. Kathandrax is 600 territory unless something has dramatically shifted. I'd also put up a knowledgeable clear team (on cons if HM) vs a perma any day of the week in Slavers.

Listen, I'm all for toning down SF a notch but this skill is nowhere near as prevalent as Ursan was in it's prime. To claim otherwise is just hysteria. Ursan, quite literally, was being used everywhere for everything. It got so bad that when rank discrimination to filter out failway pugging stopped working they shifted to professions piling on bonus AR. Which brought the game full circle right back to the holy trinity of W, E and Mo...the original complaint everyone had about groups in high end content.

Xanthe Dashka · Sep 14, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Perma SF should lose the word Perma. Then SF would be ok.

And Anet knows that.

upier · Sep 14, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The ZQ argument.

Solo-SS'ing the UW gets you Ectos or whatever, but it won't get you anything else. If you need to complete a dungeon book, you can't solo SS the UW to get it (OK, so you can solo SS the UW and get $$$ and then pay a runner to get it for you, but that's really long-winded). If you want Zaishen coins, you can't get it by solo SS'ing the UW either.

Also ... that is - again - a UW specific argument. Do you have anything against nerfing Shadow Form for reasons outside of the UW? Or do you believe that even though Shadow Form is totally broken for areas other than the UW it's perfectly balanced in the UW, and to save the UW it's better to sacrifice every other area?

If you want ZCoins you don't bother with doing balanced Thommy.
The reward doesn't justify the time investment. You create a few PvP guys and do the RA quest instead.

Doing things for the title is something that people will need to do and there is no alternative for it.
But, if I can't do things with H/H, I bug the people on my FL or my guildies.
I only bother with random folks for things that I know they can't screw up.

QueenofDeath · Sep 14, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

the original complaint everyone had about groups in high end content.

Documentation please? Where are these NUMBERS of EVERYONE didn't like the holy trinity balanced builds? You are very wrong as it's just as easy to me to say EVERYONE enjoyed the holy trinity grouping groups much more than the destructive nature of solo builds in these high end content areas. I wish they would nerf every solo build out there for high end areas as that's the best loot in the game and there shouldn't be one specific class and one or two specific builds that get the best rewards in the least amount of time. Not unless every class gets a god mode build. Then I wouldn't care. I personally hate the sin class and would never play one. They are a weak cowardly childish class any other place in the game. People who play them have no skill except how to press 1 2 3 over an over again.

Shasgaliel · Sep 14, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

They are a weak cowardly childish class any other place in the game. People who play them have no skill except how to press 1 2 3 over an over again.

Not true. They are quite powerful but people do not know how to play them except playing perma. To play a good sin in pve outside perma requires skill. I saw a few good moebius sins out there when pugging FOW for example. To play such a sin and not to die at every mob is quite a challenge for a random sin player...

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

I would love to see a perma team clear Foundry, it would be horrifically inefficient. The Citadel even more so. The current heroway build down there doesn't use perma...at all. Gloom you may have a point but that's basically a rep farm with the off chance of some extra gems so who cares. Kathandrax is 600 territory unless something has dramatically shifted. I'd also put up a knowledgeable clear team (on cons if HM) vs a perma any day of the week in Slavers.

Listen, I'm all for toning down SF a notch but this skill is nowhere near as prevalent as Ursan was in it's prime. To claim otherwise is just hysteria. Ursan, quite literally, was being used everywhere for everything. It got so bad that when rank discrimination to filter out failway pugging stopped working they shifted to professions piling on bonus AR. Which brought the game full circle right back to the holy trinity of W, E and Mo...the original complaint everyone had about groups in high end content.

Can Ursan do this?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10395578

Pay close attention in particular to how long it takes to do each part. Ursan might've been more prevalent, but it cannot match this - and it happens in all sorts of areas. Here's another example:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...handrax_Sinway

Again, look at the time taken.

I think it's a close fight between which the greater problem is / was, Ursan and Shadow Form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you want ZCoins you don't bother with doing balanced Thommy.
The reward doesn't justify the time investment. You create a few PvP guys and do the RA quest instead.

Doing things for the title is something that people will need to do and there is no alternative for it.
But, if I can't do things with H/H, I bug the people on my FL or my guildies.
I only bother with random folks for things that I know they can't screw up.

You do if you're bad at PvP, and I know lots of people who're bad at PvP (or do not PvP).

You may not bother with random folks, but it doesn't mean anyone else has to. As I wrote before I prefer to PuG when the area in question is easy for me to do. I gave Thunderhead Keep as an example above. Since the mission is so easy, I might as well help some worse players through. Actually given my experience Thommis HM would be pretty easy too if people just trusted me, but of course you can't expect me to find people when everyone just hitches a ride on VSF right?

Reformed · Sep 14, 2009, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Documentation please? Where are these NUMBERS of EVERYONE didn't like the holy trinity balanced builds? You are very wrong as it's just as easy to me to say EVERYONE enjoyed the holy trinity grouping groups much more than the destructive nature of solo builds in these high end content areas.

There was no shortage of crying when 5 man FoW farming didn't include x profession. How about steel wall? Searingway/Ritway? b/p? I don't need to cherry pick this is how elite content was run. It was just as bad when the only people allowed in Ursan groups (intended as a profession equalizer) were Wars, Eles running prismatic, the occasional Necro and Monks as a backline. If we run back to tank and spank, as the game usually does, the unused professions still won't see the light of day. You will most likely trade A/Mo/N for E's, Mo's or likely a combination of both in the case of perma.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from forming a solid balanced team by the way. I do it anytime I need one for HM Duncan in Slavers and I'll bet if you ask some people you know to plan ahead on a weekend you can do UW/FoW this way too. I pull up my friends list and set a guild announcement when we want to run, as an example, Urgoz HM for fun. "I can't find a group" is a total bs excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Again, look at the time taken.

Nothing should be that fast, that is a problem. I do think however that they could re-evaluate dungeon design rather than smiters booning the skill. This sort of play was inevitable anyways...they add insanely overpriced DAW skins and then don't expect novel runs to pop up? Heh.

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

There's nothing stopping you from forming a solid balanced team, I agree, but you can't PuG a group, that is the problem. I for example have ... 6 people on my friend's list I trust enough to ask for PvE help in the hardest areas. Of this 6, one of them recently got back into the game and is working hard getting skills / heroes / etc for his new Monk. Of the remaining 5, 3 of them tend to be PvP'ing. Of the remaining 2, one of them has pretty incompatible timezone with me - we see each other online every now and then, but when I need him he's usually not on. And the last guy is inactive. I can't ask my guildmates either since I'm in a PvP guild myself.

I can't form groups to do the UW / FoW / Urgoz / etc whenever I want to. Well for the FoW I can ask to borrow someone's heroes and 7-man it, I've done it before. But I can't put together teams for Vloxen's or whatever (which is why I learned to H/H them).

I don't agree with re-evaluating the dungeon. Duncan HM for example is pretty damn difficult for a normal team already. It's not the fault of the area for not carrying the counters to Shadow Form (how many are there anyway?), it's the fault of Shadow Form for bypassing way too many builds in the game.

Reformed · Sep 14, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Duncan HM for example is pretty damn difficult for a normal team already.

One perma with no (basic?) heals shouldn't be able to sit there and take 200% damage reversed off Sliver Armor solo against Duncan and survive. I agree with this. Since the trigger in that run is wanding (spirits and restless) set the popups right around Duncan to always be the SP variant. This wouldn't change the run for a normal setup at all with proper pulls. Let's face it they are probably in the run for those overpriced Hierophant Bows...make him impossible to solo and you remove the incentive to run the entire dungeon this way.

reaper with no name · Sep 14, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't think 99% is much of an exaggeration, if it all. Discordway does "curbstomp" ALL VQs. As far as dungeons, I'd say there are only 3 which are non-curbstomppable by discordway.

At any rate, I feel like you're taking my quotes way out of context again. I was responding to a post which stated that the ubiquity of SF, in general PvE (e.g. VQs and missions) was getting to be a problem. I responded by saying that discordway was FAR more ubiquitous in general PvE.

Obviously, the only point of contention against SF which has a grain of salt is SF's use in farming and high end areas.

Can you please clarify? I feel that any argument made about SF and UWSC can be generalized to any other high end area.

I thought you were joking when you first posited this argument.

You do realize how selfish and elitist you sound? You are basically arguing that want SF nerfed so that your phallic sword looks even bigger than it already is. You are basically arguing that the economic classes in GW should be even more stratified than they already are.

It's also pretty dubious, your claim that doing known farms won't make you rich. Yes, it true that it won't make you comparatively rich. But you're losing sight of the fact that PvE is primarily Co-op, not competitive. A full HOM is still full no matter how many other players have it. At the end of the day, it's unarguably only worth less if YOU deem it worth less. Whereas true currency is worth less if OTHER people deem it.

Again, STOP caring about how others play the game.!!!!

Lastly, you do realize how radically different your arguments are compared to others wanting SF nerfed, right? I could quote innumerably from this topic alone people implying that SF users are selfish elitist brats, whereas you seem to imply that SF users are ordinary treadmill lemmings.

So, then, you think godmode is ok?

Good, then. Go to the suggestions forum and make a suggestion to give every class permaSF. If it's ok for one class to be invulnerable, then it must be ok for everyone, right? If it really doesn't take away all purpose in playing, then it's fine for everyone to use it. After all, no matter how you slice it, it's not fair for one profession to get something as powerful as SF and no one else.

I'll take your argument seriously when you do that. Same goes for anyone else who thinks SF is ok.

Tom Swift · Sep 14, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

..........

I can't form groups to do the UW / FoW / Urgoz / etc whenever I want to. Well for the FoW I can ask to borrow someone's heroes and 7-man it, I've done it before. But I can't put together teams for Vloxen's or whatever (which is why I learned to H/H them).

I don't agree with re-evaluating the dungeon. Duncan HM for example is pretty damn difficult for a normal team already. It's not the fault of the area for not carrying the counters to Shadow Form (how many are there anyway?), it's the fault of Shadow Form for bypassing way too many builds in the game.

First of all, I am not against nerfing Shadow Form

But if all they do is nerf shadow form you still won't get groups. As the dungeons/UW/FoW stand not one wants to spend the time doing them for the rewards as offered. These places are active now only because SF makes it possible to do them quickly.

All the high end areas really need to be redesigned with more than an eye toward ending shadow form abuse.

One of the dynamics they have to keep in mind whatever they do is that with a game getting this long in the tooth PuGs simply will not form on a sustainable basis. This fact was made evident by the Zaishen quests. PuGs formed for the first couple of weeks but now it's back to doing the Zquests solo or skipping them till one comes up you can run.

This is just the reality of the game. It is no longer a PuG friendly game and SF is not the cause of that.

Yes, fix SF but don't expect it to make one iota of difference in being able to get a group together.

Quote:

Good, then. Go to the suggestions forum and make a suggestion to give every class permaSF. If it's ok for one class to be invulnerable, then it must be ok for everyone, right? If it really doesn't take away all purpose in playing, then it's fine for everyone to use it. After all, no matter how you slice it, it's not fair for one profession to get something as powerful as SF and no one else.

Actually, if they don't fix the high end areas properly (and I don't think they have the manpower to do this) I would be 100% for this.

Jeydra · Sep 14, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

One of the dynamics they have to keep in mind whatever they do is that with a game getting this long in the tooth PuGs simply will not form on a sustainable basis. This fact was made evident by the Zaishen quests. PuGs formed for the first couple of weeks but now it's back to doing the Zquests solo or skipping them till one comes up you can run.

On the contrary, I find the ZQ areas typically packed (comparatively speaking) with people who're happy to form PuGs. This is especially evident when the area in question isn't one that's doable easily (e.g. Zoldark the Unholy ZQ = Vloxen's).

The real challenge when it comes to PuGGing ZQs is to form a viable team out of the players you have at hand. There's always whether the players are running good builds, if they can be convinced to run good builds, if you have enough firepower elsewhere to compensate for some people running bad builds, if you can form a functioning team with no Monks, if the other players in the team actually trust you to have a team that will work with no Monks, and so on and so forth. There're lots of challenges yes, but no people going LFG isn't one of them. There was one day I PuG'ed Oola's Lab the day after the ZQ, and I still got a full human team. Of course it didn't work out well - one Mesmer was running Echo Ether Feast + Energy Tap + Vital Blessing for example, I think one Assassin didn't switch off his Perma set and had like 400 HP, three people disconnected, including one of the healers (ftw), and so on. But I got a team.

@Reformed - well then you'd also have to fix Kathandrax, and DoA, and UW, etc. Why not just fix Shadow Form?

QueenofDeath · Sep 15, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

it's the fault of Shadow Form for bypassing way too many builds in the game.

Exactly thread winner statement about Shadow Form. It bypasses way dam too many builds in the game. Nothing should be invincible, nothing should be near god mode. What GW leaves out other games have is a thing called "fizzle" the spell fails to cast. Boy do I remember that from Everquest, but, it certainly kept you in fear mode and not in god mode.